Cali Alpert:
Welcome to Dropping In from Omega Institute, a podcast that explores the many ways to awaken the best in the human spirit. I'm Cali Alpert. Dropping in today, Devi Brown. Devi is a master well-being educator, certified multi-modality healer and chief impact officer at Chopra Global, where she leads diversity and inclusion initiatives. She is also the voice of daily meditation on the Chopra Wellness app and host of the spirituality podcast, Dropping Gems on The Black Effect Network. Devi offers education and spiritual psychology, meditation, energy, and metaphysical healing with a focus in the BIPOC community. Her first book, Crystal Bliss, was the first mainstream book on crystals written by a woman of color. Devi, thank you so much for dropping in today. It's so good to see you.

Devi Brown:
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you.

Cali Alpert:
Your work covers so many touchpoints in the areas of healing and spirituality. Often the word heal is commonly used, sometimes even overused, it feels like these days. I'm curious how you define healing and when one knows that they need it.

Devi Brown:
Well, I think everyone needs it because to be alive is to be in a constant contrast of perceivably good and bad, challenge and ease, grief and joy. I think just by nature of being human, we are always kind of oscillating between extremes and having different experiences that are meant to invoke challenge and awareness and consciousness. I think by nature of that, all of us, that's what we're here to do. We're here to study ourselves, we're here to learn, we're here to remember, we're here to live our highest truth and a term that is used now because I think we're having for the very first time in human history, expansive mainstream conversations about trauma for the first time ever, at least in this iteration of humanity. And I think that's why the word heal keeps coming forward because we're recognizing this prevalent emotional response and experience that hasn't been really broadly explained, it hasn't been looked at.

So "heal" is becoming a term that encompasses part of overall well-being. There are things that everyone needs to "heal from," but especially if you're a survivor of trauma, of complex trauma, there are certain things that need to heal in your physical body, in your biology and emotionally, mentally, spiritually. But I think overall, you know what we're really talking about in this day and age for everyone, it's an overall look at a holistic view of our humanity. And I think we've had awakened people throughout the centuries that have been sane and speaking these things in all the wisdom traditions. And this is really one of the first times that on a larger scale, on a more mainstream scale, on a more global scale, a lot of people are pursuing similar things at the same time.

Cali Alpert:
What do you think it means for someone to heal? How does one know when they're on the trajectory of healing?

Devi Brown:
I think when you notice you're suffering, when you notice you have pain, when you notice that there are barriers that you have up against yourself and you want to figure out how they got there and why. That is typically the catalyst to know that it could be really powerful and beneficial for you to have what is being referred to now as a healing journey or a journey of self-discovery, of expansion, of making peace with things that hurt. And I think when I think of the word heal, heal to me is just remembrance. It's wholeness. It is coming into a higher version of yourself that you've always been designed to be and to live and doing any excavation that is in the way of that.

And for some that means very real things. It could mean intensive therapy, it could mean many different modalities necessary to come into that. And for some others the path is different for each of us. For others, sometimes it's just expressing yourself more, opening up. It's a multitude all the ways that we need to heal. And sometimes some of us have 10 different ways we got to heal and sometimes people have one, but everybody is here to learn and know something. And I think we can kind of interchange that word of remembering, learn, and know with heal.

Cali Alpert:
You talk a lot in your work about making, about finding comfort and making space for the things that are uncomfortable. And I think that's such a huge important point that I'd love to hear you talk more about because we are so conditioned in our sort of attachment and aversion society to chase our pleasure and have aversion to our pain. And that most people that are on the path, great ancient wisdom traditions and teachers will say the opposite, which is that the first thing we need to do is lean into all the discomfort and grief and challenges. Can you speak to that?

Devi Brown:
The thing about chasing pleasure when you don't do the deeper work first is that it's throwing a bunch of candy into a pit. So it's refined sugars, it is something that it has no nutrients in it and will go right through you, but can also damage you in the process as it moves through you in your life and your body. And if there's not a foundation of healing, of wholeness, of consciousness, you're throwing things that you are connecting to pleasure, to a sugar rush and they're going into a massive, endless void, a pit that will never be full. So that's the road of chasing pleasure, doing the work to remove any barriers you have up against yourself, create space to experience authentic pleasure and joy, and that pleasure and joy is held in a container you created so it becomes a stockpile that can support, that can live with you, that can fuel you at other times.

It also because becomes something that because it has a foundation, because it has a vessel to hold it, it is something that you can really get to know and experience at a deeper level. And it's something that you come to be able to share because now you have this reserve of joy and pleasure to give out. You're not in a state of lack, you're not in a state of restriction, you're not in a state of just kind of habitual empty filling. And so the pursuit of pleasure for me is the pursuit of God. It's the pursuit of being able to experience all the profound joy that we're meant to know in this life. And it doesn't mean we'll be without challenge, but my take personally in my personal life is really that I did sign up for the challenge. And because of that and because I know that and I've also accepted it and agreed to it, I want to make sure my vessel can hold all the delight and joy that's possible. Every single ounce that I can get in and out of my life, I want it.

Cali Alpert:
I hear you and I completely relate. I think that just in and of itself is such an important teaching, the idea of acceptance and surrender into what we signed up for. That in and of itself is a huge step, isn't it?

Devi Brown:
God, one of the biggest. I think that's the piece that, especially for those that might at some point in their journey, find themselves in a loop where you don't know how to get unstuck, you've grown, but there's a ways to go but there's not a clear path to it. I think that what you just shared is what that kind of feels like sometimes.

Cali Alpert:
You just made a reference to having signed up for your story, your life. Do you feel like you chose this specific life or are you speaking more to just coming in as a human in this earthly existence?

Devi Brown:
I think both. I think depending on where you're at your journey, you'll see it very differently. There's so many ways to see it and none of them are right and wrong. I believe in the committed path to become more of myself always. And so for me in my life, I absolutely believe I signed up for this exact karma. I signed up for these exact feelings. The way I got to the feelings could have perhaps come a few different routes, but I signed up to know what I know and that requires something of me.

And I think in general, even if for those that aren't maybe connected to a greater understanding of karma and reincarnation and the cycles of learning, I think also just to embody on earth to be a human and to know that this is a place that has never been in pristine peace. These good old days everyone talks to has never existed for anyone. You have patches of joy, you have patches of challenge, you have patches of ease and sometimes you have patches of dis-ease. And I think that we signed up to know it all and it really behooves us to be an acceptance of that. I don't believe it is in my best interest or the best use of my time here to argue with God. I have to surrender to what is, I have to work with what is present and I'm committed to that.

Cali Alpert:
You just gave me goosebumps, argue with God, yeah. Do you remember when you knew you were made of in certain way that was meant to chart this path and perhaps what it was in your life that catalyzed it? The first challenge or situation where you knew there was something to heal, something to lean into, something to better understand.

Devi Brown:
That's a really layered question, I think I can speak to some of it. Yeah. Always had a knowing since I was a child for sure. I recognized as a young person, I was seen and experiencing the world in a completely different way than the majority of the adults around me, than the majority of the children around me. And so I had a deep understanding that... as a young person, I experienced it as that there was deep unfairness in the world, that the reality we were all living wasn't what was positioned to me on television and in movies and in a lot of the children's books I read. I remember being hyper-aware of that. And I remember having a real connection to witnessing and observing adults and their choice-making and having a real understanding even as a child and from afar, things that I was quantifying as not good decisions, that would not have great outcomes. Kind of being very observant of a lack of intention and thoughtfulness and presence with a lot of people that were swirling around me and kind of the hypocrisy of all of it. I just remember things being like, this doesn't make any sense with the things like no one's behavior is really matching the words. So that was just my first knowing, which really catalyzed just how my brain works overall.

But there are just so many things that led me to this journey. I'm exploring a lot of it in the book that I'm writing now, but I'm a complex trauma survivor, experiencer. I've had a lot of very shocking, sad, bizarre, painful experiences throughout my childhood and adult life that just led me to look at pain in a completely different way and led me to look at internal suffering in a completely different way.

Cali Alpert:
One thing I would like to ask, because you mentioned trauma earlier in our conversation today and just how pervasive people's recognition is of it and how the word has become more of a household term. Can you speak to the difference between individual trauma that people experience often in their families of origin and collective trauma, societal trauma, racial trauma, there's so many larger, more global traumas that are going on. Do you think that the experience is the same or different when all is said and done between individual and collective trauma?

Devi Brown:
I think everything about this experience is the same and different at once of being alive. I think we operate... Being on earth is really interesting. We operate in a system of being in multiple containers of learning at the same time. And so, I think we have our individual learning trajectory of the very specific experiences that have happened to us over time, the very specific makeup of who we are and how we relate to things in ourselves. And then we're also living in a larger story being told within our family structure. We're living in a larger circle container than that within our more immediate community, our work that we do in the world. And then we're also on this track of experiencing things as a greater collective. And that means the hundreds of millions of us that exist in the United States. And then that means the eight, now eight billion of us that exist globally.

So, I think that we're all on so many various tracks and within so many various containers of learning all at the same time. I think the piece that allows us to come into an expanded view and more observation of the other tracks at play is the initial investigation of self and really observing our most personalized experiences. And then spanning out and growing out and zooming out our view to see the other stories that are being told, the other archetypes at play, the other traumas that we're experiencing. But I think for a very, very basic viewpoint and understanding of trauma, we have our experiences and a lot of that constitutes things that happen to us beginning in childhood and then also throughout your life. And trauma can be what's considered a big T trauma or a little T trauma. The range is huge spiritually, there's not a particular hierarchy for it, but we do experience it as some things being bigger than others and the ways that we are in the world.
But trauma can be emotional neglect in childhood, not being seen by your caretakers, not being related to. It could be actual very real abuse of the physical, the sexual kind, mentally, emotionally. There are pages to this list. It is so vast and so individualized. And then I think we have outside of that ring, other traumas that can be our intergenerational trauma, the traumas happening within our family systems, the traumas that may have been happening for decades for centuries, ancestral lineage work, deeper kind of spiritual traumas. And then I think we move out. And then you think of the traumas that are happening in your life and in your community that are a hundred percent structural that are a byproduct of our specific society that are then a byproduct of racism that are a byproduct of ableism, of sexism, of patriarchy, of so much.

And then there's also so much of the gaslighting trauma that all of us endure our entire lifetimes. Some within family systems or relationships or friendships and others just by the things we watch on TV, or very often the gaslighting of our constitutional government, of things that are written in the constitution that have never been upheld with behavior. So, these loops are so endless. And I say that I that as someone who personally is thinking about this all the time, so none of this can be made light of, but I'm looking at it from the observational view of like, wow, there is so much for us to undo. There is so much for us to remember.

There is so much for us to heal in ourselves and then participate in, co-creating and healing on a mass level for everyone. And it is overwhelming. Even hearing this explanation out of my own mouth, it is a lot. It is overwhelming, but to kind of bring it back down because we're never going to be without all of those different levels and layers of experience. And so we have to bring it down to healing ourselves, to then heal our communities, to then elevate the higher consciousness of the planet.

Cali Alpert:
And now a word about Omega Teacher Studio. Get ready to be inspired from your very own cushion, yoga mat, or couch. Omega Teacher Studio brings your favorite teachers direct to you live and online from their studios for one plus hour classes on topics that matter the most. They're easy to fit into your schedule and affordable too. Learn more at eomega.org/studio to receive a 10% discount on any teacher's studio tuition, enter the code DI10 when registering. That's the letters D and I and the numbers one and zero. Now back to our episode.

It almost sounds like no one's immune on some level, nobody's exempt from some version of this experience. And the word as I'm listening to you talk that's popping in my brain is the challenge of desensitization.

Devi Brown:
Yes.

Cali Alpert:
Because so much of this has become so normalized that it's almost-

Devi Brown:
It been normalized until now. Yeah. This is the discomfort of now, which is also the most profound, gorgeous gift of this moment in history. But my God, yes to everything that you're saying. And I think for anyone listening, because there are really blessed few that are kind of the examples and the pillars that we look to for different experience. There are some that would consider themselves and how beautiful, and I say this with a lot of reverence for the experience that have not experienced what they would constitute as trauma. There are people that are also carrying guilt and shame for not having what they are measuring as trauma against other people.

So you may not have had a really highly functional, nourishing, beautiful family system from awakened parents and awakened adults that really thoughtfully connected to you in childhood and supported you throughout your life. And that is gorgeous, and I hope that you share that with everyone you meet. And just witnessing suffering can feel like trauma. Being in this very challenging world and having a completely different experience than what you were seeing play out with your friends, with people with you were in relationship with just turning on the news and witnessing suffering that can cause so much internal disease that can bring about anxiety, depression, the whole gamut of emotions that people feel who have had different types of traumatic experiences.

Cali Alpert:
Much of the work that you're doing with Chopra Global and beyond is about diversity, inclusion, bringing spirituality to Black, Indigenous and people of color communities. So, what do you believe is most needed in these communities right now?

Devi Brown:
I don't know how to quantify that answer. I think what we need in all communities is access. Everyone has the right to heal. And I think very largely for a long time, so much of the tools that are used in a lot of the sacred work, from yoga to meditation to everything else, it was very often... Through marketing, through experience, through access, it's been translated and really just coming through a highly specific white western woman's lens for the last several decades, especially since some of these traditions came have been introduced to the west. And so I think getting people away from the capitalistic spin that is on wellness and away from a lot of the barriers our individual communities have towards work like this, which was often found in the fact that many practices and belief systems that didn't uphold white Christianity were banned.

Or different cultures where countries were colonized, their Indigenous practices that were then brought back to different places by more elite privileged communities, they were banned, they were outlawed, people were murdered, they were maimed, they were amputated, they were hanged, they were tortured for things that they believed in. That then became part of this capitalistic spin of finding peace and healing yourself. And so that's an issue and I think it's really important and it's how we designed our society. So, it's not necessarily that there is a particular group that is wrong or right in this current year, but something that is very important is that everyone is able to have access. And so that's what I look to do. Whether I am leading with a large company, one of the many companies that I have the pleasure of advising, or if I'm doing one-on-one work just within the community or leading something smaller. I'll take some of the same teachings that I take to these larger six figure spaces and then I'll make sure that I can also offer it for free in the community.

And so I think one, people that teach should be taking a viewpoint of how can you better understand and serve the greater collective and not just the particular culture or container that is paying you. And I think we just need to be able to continue and we are doing this now, expanding offerings. It's translating this work to be specific to our communities. I think we need a lot more access to people being able to get certified, to getting people to be able to have the time, the space, the bandwidth and the finances to go into deep study with this work to then become teachers to then launch programs to create within their communities, through their vision and their knowledge of what their community needs.

Cali Alpert:
Beyond the hyper-monetization of spirituality, to your point, it's also an extremely crowded and diluted landscape in general.

Devi Brown:
Oh my God, yes.

Cali Alpert:
I know that could be an understatement. How do people parse through? How does one find the most integrity, the best fit for them when it feels like a lot of people are calling themselves spiritual teachers and spiritual leaders these days?

Devi Brown:
There's no definitive way to answer that question, but I always suggest to everyone, because something I really try to do, a lot of people reach out because of the kind of conversations I have on my podcast and ask for specific recommendations. And I don't feel called to do that because we all need different things. And so much of the spiritual work, it is so deep and it is a space that can be largely unregulated. So, I don't ever want to take on the stance of coming up with the list of how to know to really trust who you choose. It's such an individualized choice. But I will say, Cali, I think for everyone the first step is having an intention. Have an intention, notice yourself, begin to get quiet with yourself. Beginning a meditation practice. There is no right or wrong way to do it. It's about creating the space to get still, to get silent. And that is free and that can be done anywhere.

And I think it's really important for us to begin to check in with what our needs are. You're walking into any room with any support that you can find, having done a little if able of the work to know what you need or what you desire. That will direct your ability to collaborate with another person on your journey. Because then you can be a lot more specific and you won't necessarily be misled or manipulated or pushed into things that aren't what you need, that aren't the right fit. So I think taking some time, if you feel called, and I'm sure especially with the audience that this podcast connects to, I feel that most have a certain baseline of self. And so what could be powerful is... And also if you're sharing this episode with those that don't yet have that take time before you seek outside counsel to seek your own, get really quiet, come into a space where you don't have to have all the answers that a lot of that will come, but where you're just saying, I am open to more.

I've identified that these things are pain points for me and I want to know why and I want to know what to do with it. I want to know how to transform it, how to release it. And then just starting to notice within oneself, what do you want more of? In your life right now, if life is feeling like a struggle, if it's feeling cloudy, if it's just feeling maybe complicated and confusing, what is the feeling you'd like to know that maybe you haven't experienced yet? And just starting to keep a slow list. There don't have to be solutions written down here, but beginning to start a list just for you to wrap your mind around what's possible for your journey and where you know can dream of it going. I think having that information will allow anyone to walk into a space feeling a little more equipped to make such a big choice.

Who am I bringing on my spiritual journey with me? Who can be a teacher in this moment? How can I open to more connection in this moment? Having a baseline of who you are. I also recommend for a lot of people, if you're called to become more, if this is a season where you are either releasing or you have already cleared the space and you're looking to call in more, taking personality tests can be really powerful. I really recommend those to people. One, they can be a lot of fun. Two, it can be the validation to some of the inner knowing about yourself, your personality, the way you work, the way you move in the world that maybe you've always longed to have reflected to you. That can be a Myers-Briggs test. I love Clifton Strengths. There are the Enneagram test, human design. There are so many powerful tools of just getting more clear, like yeah, what are my strengths?

Even if no one has said them aloud to me before, even if I haven't acknowledged them, what are some of my triggers? Getting your birth chart done by a great birth chart reader. And it may take time to find one. So in the meantime, there are a few apps that I really love that I use myself. One of them is The Pattern. The Pattern. It's astrology through a deeply psychological lens. I think it's great for doing some of that shadow work. And I also love the Chani app, C-H-A-N-I. It speaks to astrology in a very beautiful, expansive, spiritual language, empowering language that can feel really nourishing on the journey.

Cali Alpert:
Those are such great recommendations. I love that. So those personality tests can be a lot of fun and very interesting and very enlightening. No, I'm not. Yes I am. I'm an introvert. I'm an extrovert.

Devi Brown:
It's like, is that true? Okay, well maybe a little.

Cali Alpert:
I think also one of the big themes that I'm hearing in your response is about self-trust. Often it feels like the order in which people go onto their journeys is that self-trust is at the end of it, further into the process. Whereas if we could just have maybe a little bit more of that to launch us, we could find the direction maybe more readily that that's necessary. And again, that's something that's not taught a lot.

Devi Brown:
I love that.

Cali Alpert:
It's the idea of hearing ourselves. Right?

Devi Brown:
I love that you said that. Yeah, completely. And even just at the beginning stage, because you learn things through practicing them. You learn things through the vulnerability of the early stages of kind of cringing at your reactions and then slowly expanding to more letting yourself get it wrong. And I think even just setting that intention at the first leg of saying, my intention is to trust myself. I want to trust myself more. Does that feel like, do I trust myself? And just starting with a little bit of that inquiry is such a great way to at least plant the seed of that first step and then get to the beautiful pathway that allows it to become true and real in your life. And that eventually lands you at the ending point where you're moving in trust as you flow through your life.

Cali Alpert:
I've had a teacher who's dear to me in my life, who worked with Maharishi as an apprentice back in the seventies. And one of the biggest takeaway lessons he learned from Maharishi was trust your experience. Whatever your experience is that is real. And imagine if we learn that when we were kids, what the world would be like.

Devi Brown:
And imagine if it was supported in us so much of the world. It's like I think about that in parenting so often with my child. I have a young child and it's like, okay, what are my core values? But then how am I showing up and living that parenting in every moment? How am I slowing down enough so that my child has the time to practice these guiding teachings I want to share and come into them in a way that they relate to it in their own language and rhythm as well?

Cali Alpert:
Do you believe that everybody has a higher power available to them if they so choose to find it?

Devi Brown:
Absolutely. It's what we're all here for. That's what I believe. Yeah. I believe we are here because God longed to know itself. And I think we are here to know and to love God and to love ourselves. So yes, absolutely. And I don't have any desire to convince or judge around that. I think we all have the dignity of our process. You can believe in everything. You can believe in nothing, your path is yours. But I believe in an underlining guidance of dignity, of living, with honor, of making choices, with intent and awareness and of limiting harm to ourselves and others.

Cali Alpert:
So finally, I have three questions that I like to ask every guest here on Dropping In. The first one is I'd like to grant you one wish for our listeners and our viewers, what would it be?

Devi Brown:
One wish for all of your divine listeners and viewers would be release whatever is causing you the most pain. Anything that is keeping you from yourself, from your authenticity, from your most aligned life. My wish is that you find the thread to begin to pull at, to release it.

Cali Alpert:
What is something that you wish for yourself?

Devi Brown:
My wish for myself is that I continue to expand in joy to live a devotional life of service, to keep an open heart and to become a wise elder of many, many, many decades from now.

Cali Alpert:
And finally, what would be the one takeaway if only one you would wish for our listeners and viewers to take away from our conversation today?

Devi Brown:
Takeaway from our conversation. A curiosity hat to put on when you think of yourself. Lean into inquiry, think about yourself more. Think about what makes you tick. Get still more. Don't ruminate in thoughts that you've always been thinking. Search for new thoughts, new connections, new creativity, new ways to create something else, something more. Wear a hat of experimentation. Be willing to get out there and try on these new ways of being without judging yourself. And just see what happens.

Cali Alpert:
And finally, if people would like to find out more about you, your endeavors, where can they find you?

Devi Brown:
Yes, please head to my Instagram @DeviBrown that will link you directly to my website, which is devibrown.com. And also to a few projects that I really love right now. I did a beautiful docuseries with Deepak Chopra, Gotham Chopra and Religion of Sports and Draymond Green, which I love doing. In that program, which is now on Amazon Prime, I had the chance to share Reiki healing with a mass audience, to teach meditation with Draymond and Deepak. And I was just so moved by the power of his presence and his intention for his life and for his growth and healing. So it was such an honor and joy to be a part of. And I also have my own podcast called Dropping Gems, very close in name, Dropping Gems, which is on The Black Effect and iHeartMedia network. And I explore higher consciousness. We talk about everything from intimacy to psychedelics, to meditation, and so that's just a place that I love to share as well.

Cali Alpert:
Thank you so much. It's been such a joy to talk with you today. I so appreciate it.

Devi Brown:
Cali, thank you so much. This has been such an amazing interview. These questions are gorgeous. It's been such a joy spending time with you. Thank you. And as always, just such a thank-you, thank-you to the existence of the Omega Institute and the phenomenal spiritual depth of work that they have been doing for over 40 years.

Cali Alpert:
Thank you for that. Devi.

Thanks for dropping in with Omega Institute. If you like what you hear, tell your friends and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps new listeners find us. If you'd like to see what we look like, watch the video version of Dropping In on Omega's YouTube channel. Dropping In is made possible in part by the support of Omega members. Omega members enjoy a host of beneficial experiences when they donate to help sustain Omega's programming. To learn more, visit eomega.org/membership and check out our many online learning opportunities featuring your favorite teachers and thought leaders at eomega.org/onlinelearning. I'm Cali Alpert, producer and host of Dropping In. Our video editor is Grannell Knox. The music and mix are by Scott Mueller. Thanks for dropping in.